Can a Bladesinger Wizard use Bladesong with a Hand Crossbow? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowIs there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?Is a hand crossbow anything special?How do you load a hand crossbow?Twin hand crossbow Fighter: is this build valid?Can a bladesinger dual-wield?Can Mage Hand Legerdemain load a hand crossbow? What about two hand crossbows?Can an Arcane Trickster use Mage Hand Legerdemain to steal the bolt out of a crossbow?In this absurd multi-class, is there any other benefit to having a specific starting class?Is this homebrew Dartmaster class balanced compared to the other PHB classes?Is this homebrew archetype for Artificer balanced?Is proficiency in hand crossbows sufficient to use a repeating hand crossbow?

What does "Its cash flow is deeply negative" mean?

Reference request: Grassmannian and Plucker coordinates in type B, C, D

Circle x^2 + y^2 = n! doesn't hit any lattice points for any n except for 0, 1, 2 and 6 or does it?

How to invert MapIndexed on a ragged structure? How to construct a tree from rules?

Won the lottery - how do I keep the money?

How did people program for Consoles with multiple CPUs?

Why do remote US companies require working in the US?

Flying from Cape Town to England and return to another province

Is it my responsibility to learn a new technology in my own time my employer wants to implement?

What flight has the highest ratio of time difference to flight time?

Why does the flight controls check come before arming the autobrake on the A320?

Math-accent symbol over parentheses enclosing accented symbol (amsmath)

How to place nodes around a circle from some initial angle?

Why isn't acceleration always zero whenever velocity is zero, such as the moment a ball bounces off a wall?

A Man With a Stainless Steel Endoskeleton (like The Terminator) Fighting Cloaked Aliens Only He Can See

Why is quantifier elimination desirable for a given theory?

If a black hole is created from light, can this black hole then move at the speed of light?

Running a General Election and the European Elections together

What is the value of α and β in a triangle?

Why this way of making earth uninhabitable in Interstellar?

Measuring resistivity of dielectric liquid

How to scale a tikZ image which is within a figure environment

Is wanting to ask what to write an indication that you need to change your story?

How to count occurrences of text in a file?



Can a Bladesinger Wizard use Bladesong with a Hand Crossbow?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowIs there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?Is a hand crossbow anything special?How do you load a hand crossbow?Twin hand crossbow Fighter: is this build valid?Can a bladesinger dual-wield?Can Mage Hand Legerdemain load a hand crossbow? What about two hand crossbows?Can an Arcane Trickster use Mage Hand Legerdemain to steal the bolt out of a crossbow?In this absurd multi-class, is there any other benefit to having a specific starting class?Is this homebrew Dartmaster class balanced compared to the other PHB classes?Is this homebrew archetype for Artificer balanced?Is proficiency in hand crossbows sufficient to use a repeating hand crossbow?










2












$begingroup$


I am asking for research to determine many class options and how I want to build a potential character. This concept has interested me for a while and I'd like to know. However, I could not help but notice that it doesn't say anything about it. As worded here:




Bladesong Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).




This would mean that it isn't exactly limited to melee weapons, but also certain ranged weapons such as the hand crossbow, the dart, and the sling. But, a problem I could not help but notice was that this ability is a bit hindering.




Song of Victory
Starting at 14th level, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.




Thus, would it be viable for one to just use a hand crossbow, or would it be better to take thrown melee weapons?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
    $endgroup$
    – krb
    45 secs ago















2












$begingroup$


I am asking for research to determine many class options and how I want to build a potential character. This concept has interested me for a while and I'd like to know. However, I could not help but notice that it doesn't say anything about it. As worded here:




Bladesong Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).




This would mean that it isn't exactly limited to melee weapons, but also certain ranged weapons such as the hand crossbow, the dart, and the sling. But, a problem I could not help but notice was that this ability is a bit hindering.




Song of Victory
Starting at 14th level, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.




Thus, would it be viable for one to just use a hand crossbow, or would it be better to take thrown melee weapons?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
    $endgroup$
    – krb
    45 secs ago













2












2








2





$begingroup$


I am asking for research to determine many class options and how I want to build a potential character. This concept has interested me for a while and I'd like to know. However, I could not help but notice that it doesn't say anything about it. As worded here:




Bladesong Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).




This would mean that it isn't exactly limited to melee weapons, but also certain ranged weapons such as the hand crossbow, the dart, and the sling. But, a problem I could not help but notice was that this ability is a bit hindering.




Song of Victory
Starting at 14th level, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.




Thus, would it be viable for one to just use a hand crossbow, or would it be better to take thrown melee weapons?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I am asking for research to determine many class options and how I want to build a potential character. This concept has interested me for a while and I'd like to know. However, I could not help but notice that it doesn't say anything about it. As worded here:




Bladesong Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time you choose (no action required).




This would mean that it isn't exactly limited to melee weapons, but also certain ranged weapons such as the hand crossbow, the dart, and the sling. But, a problem I could not help but notice was that this ability is a bit hindering.




Song of Victory
Starting at 14th level, you add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.




Thus, would it be viable for one to just use a hand crossbow, or would it be better to take thrown melee weapons?







dnd-5e class-feature weapons wizard






share|improve this question









New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









Sdjz

13.7k466109




13.7k466109






New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 3 hours ago









Slayer The KidSlayer The Kid

56




56




New contributor




Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Slayer The Kid is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











  • $begingroup$
    Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
    $endgroup$
    – krb
    45 secs ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
    $endgroup$
    – Ruse
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
    $endgroup$
    – krb
    45 secs ago















$begingroup$
Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
$endgroup$
– Ruse
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Hello and Welcome! Viability is subjective so as currently written your answer may be closed for being too subjective. However, I think you can refrase the question to be non-subjective: "which Bladesinger features do not work with a hand crossbow?".
$endgroup$
– Ruse
3 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
$endgroup$
– Slayer The Kid
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'm not asking about which abilities, but rather would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow? I may have made it a bit broad, in which I apologize.
$endgroup$
– Slayer The Kid
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
There is no need to close this question. The use of "viable" means -per the comment- "would the Bladesong work with the Hand Crossbow?"
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
$endgroup$
– krb
45 secs ago




$begingroup$
Not throwing this out as an official answer but it is called a BLADEsong, not an arrow or bolt song. I do think that SCAG did a poor job of describing it. Earlier versions provided a more thorough explanation of bladesingers and bladesinging. The description in SCAG reads like requirements for a video game rather than a type of class/subclass in an RPG.
$endgroup$
– krb
45 secs ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

A Hand Crossbow is not usable with Bladesong and does not synergize well with the Bladesinger class either



The only pertinent ending condition for Bladesong is the one you have listed.




It ends early if... you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. (SCAG p142)




Hand crossbows only uses one hand to attack, as they lack the "two-handed" and "versatile" traits (PHB p147 and 149). Nothing else in the Bladesong feature precludes their use.



However, they are not a valid weapon choice as per the Bladesinger Styles descriptor, all of which are melee weapons. This question, while dealing with spells, has some great answers regarding the nature of flavour versus crunch in D&D 5e. It boils down to there is no flavour crunch within spell descriptions and that everything is important. Applying that logic to this section of the manual results in HCs not being a viable choice, because they are not listed as such.



Related to this, it's interesting to note that both High Elves and Wood Elves have racial proficiency with bows, both long and short. So even though these are weapons that literally every single Elf knows how to use effectively, they are not mentioned at all in the descriptor of different Bladesinger styles. This omission leads credence to the assertion that only melee weapons are valid choices for Bladesinging.



Negative Synergies



There are several other mechanical reasons why a Hand Crossbow is not a good choice as a weapon to utilize with this feature.



  • The Bladesinging Arcane Tradition and Wizard class don't grant proficiency with the Hand Crossbow (SCAG p142 and PHB p113). The Training in War and Song Feature grants proficiency with


one type of one-handed melee weapon




This can be overcome via multi-classing, but I've included it here to point that out. The other way you could get proficiency with the Hand Crossbow is by being a Drow Elf (PHB p24).



  • You won't be able to use the Extra Attack feature because of the Hand Crossbow's Loading trait (PHB p147 and 149) unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat (PHB 165).

  • The Song of Victory feature becomes useless, as you can only add your Intelligence modifier to the damage rolls of melee weapon attacks (SCAG p142).





share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
    $endgroup$
    – Nesbitto
    1 hour ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin Olson
    1 hour ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    52 mins ago


















0












$begingroup$

Probably not : it's written for melee weapons (thrown should work)



Here is the text from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that indicates that this style of fighting is used with swords.

Under Bladesinging




They are elf wizards who master a school of sword fighting grounded in a tradition of arcane magic. (SCAG, p. 141)




Under the Green Box (Bladesinging Styles) on the next page:




From its inception, as a martial and magical art, Bladesinging has
been tied to the sword, more specifically the longsword. (SCAG, p. 142)




Other melee weapons can be used with the blade song.



When you read further into Bladesinging




Cat: Styles that employ a sword belong to this family...
Bird: Styles that focus on the use of a hafted weapon, uch as an axe or a hammer, have been grouped together as bird styles ... Eagle styles bladesingers use small hand axes, and many maneuvers in the style focus on fluid ways to throw the weapon and draw a new one.
Snake. Practioners of these styles use a flail, chain, or whip... (SCAG, p. 142)




Nowhere does it mention hand crossbows, or any other bow. If they had intended to include one handed bows in this style, it would likely have been put into that green box with an animal name. Given the thrown hammer style, a thrown dagger style would see to fit, perhaps as a variation on the Cat fighting style. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Why doesn't the level 2 feature say "melee weapon" like the 14th level feature does?



Good question. I will suggest to you that having written all of that about swords in the introduction of the Bladesinger class, and the animal named styles in the green box for some other melee weapons, the authors didn't feel the need to be redundant in their phrasing of the 2d level class feature that unlocks the Bladesinger school. Or, they overlooked it in the final edit and now rue the day that text miners discovered their oversight. ;) The evidence points to this being linked to melee weapons, not any kind of bow. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Ask your DM



If your DM is willing to let you use a hand crossbow with the Bladesong, you'll need to work together on that, and deal with the 14th level class feature when you get there. Hopefully, your adventures will take you that deep into the campaign!






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    1 hour ago












Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "122"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);






Slayer The Kid is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f144188%2fcan-a-bladesinger-wizard-use-bladesong-with-a-hand-crossbow%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3












$begingroup$

A Hand Crossbow is not usable with Bladesong and does not synergize well with the Bladesinger class either



The only pertinent ending condition for Bladesong is the one you have listed.




It ends early if... you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. (SCAG p142)




Hand crossbows only uses one hand to attack, as they lack the "two-handed" and "versatile" traits (PHB p147 and 149). Nothing else in the Bladesong feature precludes their use.



However, they are not a valid weapon choice as per the Bladesinger Styles descriptor, all of which are melee weapons. This question, while dealing with spells, has some great answers regarding the nature of flavour versus crunch in D&D 5e. It boils down to there is no flavour crunch within spell descriptions and that everything is important. Applying that logic to this section of the manual results in HCs not being a viable choice, because they are not listed as such.



Related to this, it's interesting to note that both High Elves and Wood Elves have racial proficiency with bows, both long and short. So even though these are weapons that literally every single Elf knows how to use effectively, they are not mentioned at all in the descriptor of different Bladesinger styles. This omission leads credence to the assertion that only melee weapons are valid choices for Bladesinging.



Negative Synergies



There are several other mechanical reasons why a Hand Crossbow is not a good choice as a weapon to utilize with this feature.



  • The Bladesinging Arcane Tradition and Wizard class don't grant proficiency with the Hand Crossbow (SCAG p142 and PHB p113). The Training in War and Song Feature grants proficiency with


one type of one-handed melee weapon




This can be overcome via multi-classing, but I've included it here to point that out. The other way you could get proficiency with the Hand Crossbow is by being a Drow Elf (PHB p24).



  • You won't be able to use the Extra Attack feature because of the Hand Crossbow's Loading trait (PHB p147 and 149) unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat (PHB 165).

  • The Song of Victory feature becomes useless, as you can only add your Intelligence modifier to the damage rolls of melee weapon attacks (SCAG p142).





share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
    $endgroup$
    – Nesbitto
    1 hour ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin Olson
    1 hour ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    52 mins ago















3












$begingroup$

A Hand Crossbow is not usable with Bladesong and does not synergize well with the Bladesinger class either



The only pertinent ending condition for Bladesong is the one you have listed.




It ends early if... you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. (SCAG p142)




Hand crossbows only uses one hand to attack, as they lack the "two-handed" and "versatile" traits (PHB p147 and 149). Nothing else in the Bladesong feature precludes their use.



However, they are not a valid weapon choice as per the Bladesinger Styles descriptor, all of which are melee weapons. This question, while dealing with spells, has some great answers regarding the nature of flavour versus crunch in D&D 5e. It boils down to there is no flavour crunch within spell descriptions and that everything is important. Applying that logic to this section of the manual results in HCs not being a viable choice, because they are not listed as such.



Related to this, it's interesting to note that both High Elves and Wood Elves have racial proficiency with bows, both long and short. So even though these are weapons that literally every single Elf knows how to use effectively, they are not mentioned at all in the descriptor of different Bladesinger styles. This omission leads credence to the assertion that only melee weapons are valid choices for Bladesinging.



Negative Synergies



There are several other mechanical reasons why a Hand Crossbow is not a good choice as a weapon to utilize with this feature.



  • The Bladesinging Arcane Tradition and Wizard class don't grant proficiency with the Hand Crossbow (SCAG p142 and PHB p113). The Training in War and Song Feature grants proficiency with


one type of one-handed melee weapon




This can be overcome via multi-classing, but I've included it here to point that out. The other way you could get proficiency with the Hand Crossbow is by being a Drow Elf (PHB p24).



  • You won't be able to use the Extra Attack feature because of the Hand Crossbow's Loading trait (PHB p147 and 149) unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat (PHB 165).

  • The Song of Victory feature becomes useless, as you can only add your Intelligence modifier to the damage rolls of melee weapon attacks (SCAG p142).





share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
    $endgroup$
    – Nesbitto
    1 hour ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin Olson
    1 hour ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    52 mins ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$

A Hand Crossbow is not usable with Bladesong and does not synergize well with the Bladesinger class either



The only pertinent ending condition for Bladesong is the one you have listed.




It ends early if... you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. (SCAG p142)




Hand crossbows only uses one hand to attack, as they lack the "two-handed" and "versatile" traits (PHB p147 and 149). Nothing else in the Bladesong feature precludes their use.



However, they are not a valid weapon choice as per the Bladesinger Styles descriptor, all of which are melee weapons. This question, while dealing with spells, has some great answers regarding the nature of flavour versus crunch in D&D 5e. It boils down to there is no flavour crunch within spell descriptions and that everything is important. Applying that logic to this section of the manual results in HCs not being a viable choice, because they are not listed as such.



Related to this, it's interesting to note that both High Elves and Wood Elves have racial proficiency with bows, both long and short. So even though these are weapons that literally every single Elf knows how to use effectively, they are not mentioned at all in the descriptor of different Bladesinger styles. This omission leads credence to the assertion that only melee weapons are valid choices for Bladesinging.



Negative Synergies



There are several other mechanical reasons why a Hand Crossbow is not a good choice as a weapon to utilize with this feature.



  • The Bladesinging Arcane Tradition and Wizard class don't grant proficiency with the Hand Crossbow (SCAG p142 and PHB p113). The Training in War and Song Feature grants proficiency with


one type of one-handed melee weapon




This can be overcome via multi-classing, but I've included it here to point that out. The other way you could get proficiency with the Hand Crossbow is by being a Drow Elf (PHB p24).



  • You won't be able to use the Extra Attack feature because of the Hand Crossbow's Loading trait (PHB p147 and 149) unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat (PHB 165).

  • The Song of Victory feature becomes useless, as you can only add your Intelligence modifier to the damage rolls of melee weapon attacks (SCAG p142).





share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



A Hand Crossbow is not usable with Bladesong and does not synergize well with the Bladesinger class either



The only pertinent ending condition for Bladesong is the one you have listed.




It ends early if... you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. (SCAG p142)




Hand crossbows only uses one hand to attack, as they lack the "two-handed" and "versatile" traits (PHB p147 and 149). Nothing else in the Bladesong feature precludes their use.



However, they are not a valid weapon choice as per the Bladesinger Styles descriptor, all of which are melee weapons. This question, while dealing with spells, has some great answers regarding the nature of flavour versus crunch in D&D 5e. It boils down to there is no flavour crunch within spell descriptions and that everything is important. Applying that logic to this section of the manual results in HCs not being a viable choice, because they are not listed as such.



Related to this, it's interesting to note that both High Elves and Wood Elves have racial proficiency with bows, both long and short. So even though these are weapons that literally every single Elf knows how to use effectively, they are not mentioned at all in the descriptor of different Bladesinger styles. This omission leads credence to the assertion that only melee weapons are valid choices for Bladesinging.



Negative Synergies



There are several other mechanical reasons why a Hand Crossbow is not a good choice as a weapon to utilize with this feature.



  • The Bladesinging Arcane Tradition and Wizard class don't grant proficiency with the Hand Crossbow (SCAG p142 and PHB p113). The Training in War and Song Feature grants proficiency with


one type of one-handed melee weapon




This can be overcome via multi-classing, but I've included it here to point that out. The other way you could get proficiency with the Hand Crossbow is by being a Drow Elf (PHB p24).



  • You won't be able to use the Extra Attack feature because of the Hand Crossbow's Loading trait (PHB p147 and 149) unless you take the Crossbow Expert feat (PHB 165).

  • The Song of Victory feature becomes useless, as you can only add your Intelligence modifier to the damage rolls of melee weapon attacks (SCAG p142).






share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 1 hour ago

























answered 2 hours ago









NesbittoNesbitto

1,0941513




1,0941513







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
    $endgroup$
    – Nesbitto
    1 hour ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin Olson
    1 hour ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    52 mins ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    2 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
    $endgroup$
    – Nesbitto
    1 hour ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
    $endgroup$
    – Benjamin Olson
    1 hour ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Slayer The Kid
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    52 mins ago







2




2




$begingroup$
Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 hours ago





$begingroup$
Interesting approach, particularly your point about proficiency (golf clap), but D&D 5e, unlike 4e, does not make distinction between flavor and crunch. See also this Q&A
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
$endgroup$
– Nesbitto
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Q&A is a great read. I tried writing a rebuttal and kept writing myself into a corner. You're right, updating my answer with a few more points to boot!
$endgroup$
– Nesbitto
1 hour ago




2




2




$begingroup$
Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
Good answer. One point to consider: it does not need to be a two-handed weapon only a weapon used with two hands to end the bladesong (presumably phrased that way due to versatile weapons). One does arguably use the second hand to load or reload the handcrossbow. Other minor point: a Drow elf would already have hand crossbow proficiency from their race.
$endgroup$
– Benjamin Olson
1 hour ago





1




1




$begingroup$
If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
$endgroup$
– Slayer The Kid
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
If such is the case, then would it be better to take Crossbow Expert, pick up a hand crossbow and rapier, and go with that instead?
$endgroup$
– Slayer The Kid
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
52 mins ago




$begingroup$
@Nesbitto Great point on bows to support your overall answer. +1
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
52 mins ago













0












$begingroup$

Probably not : it's written for melee weapons (thrown should work)



Here is the text from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that indicates that this style of fighting is used with swords.

Under Bladesinging




They are elf wizards who master a school of sword fighting grounded in a tradition of arcane magic. (SCAG, p. 141)




Under the Green Box (Bladesinging Styles) on the next page:




From its inception, as a martial and magical art, Bladesinging has
been tied to the sword, more specifically the longsword. (SCAG, p. 142)




Other melee weapons can be used with the blade song.



When you read further into Bladesinging




Cat: Styles that employ a sword belong to this family...
Bird: Styles that focus on the use of a hafted weapon, uch as an axe or a hammer, have been grouped together as bird styles ... Eagle styles bladesingers use small hand axes, and many maneuvers in the style focus on fluid ways to throw the weapon and draw a new one.
Snake. Practioners of these styles use a flail, chain, or whip... (SCAG, p. 142)




Nowhere does it mention hand crossbows, or any other bow. If they had intended to include one handed bows in this style, it would likely have been put into that green box with an animal name. Given the thrown hammer style, a thrown dagger style would see to fit, perhaps as a variation on the Cat fighting style. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Why doesn't the level 2 feature say "melee weapon" like the 14th level feature does?



Good question. I will suggest to you that having written all of that about swords in the introduction of the Bladesinger class, and the animal named styles in the green box for some other melee weapons, the authors didn't feel the need to be redundant in their phrasing of the 2d level class feature that unlocks the Bladesinger school. Or, they overlooked it in the final edit and now rue the day that text miners discovered their oversight. ;) The evidence points to this being linked to melee weapons, not any kind of bow. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Ask your DM



If your DM is willing to let you use a hand crossbow with the Bladesong, you'll need to work together on that, and deal with the 14th level class feature when you get there. Hopefully, your adventures will take you that deep into the campaign!






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    1 hour ago
















0












$begingroup$

Probably not : it's written for melee weapons (thrown should work)



Here is the text from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that indicates that this style of fighting is used with swords.

Under Bladesinging




They are elf wizards who master a school of sword fighting grounded in a tradition of arcane magic. (SCAG, p. 141)




Under the Green Box (Bladesinging Styles) on the next page:




From its inception, as a martial and magical art, Bladesinging has
been tied to the sword, more specifically the longsword. (SCAG, p. 142)




Other melee weapons can be used with the blade song.



When you read further into Bladesinging




Cat: Styles that employ a sword belong to this family...
Bird: Styles that focus on the use of a hafted weapon, uch as an axe or a hammer, have been grouped together as bird styles ... Eagle styles bladesingers use small hand axes, and many maneuvers in the style focus on fluid ways to throw the weapon and draw a new one.
Snake. Practioners of these styles use a flail, chain, or whip... (SCAG, p. 142)




Nowhere does it mention hand crossbows, or any other bow. If they had intended to include one handed bows in this style, it would likely have been put into that green box with an animal name. Given the thrown hammer style, a thrown dagger style would see to fit, perhaps as a variation on the Cat fighting style. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Why doesn't the level 2 feature say "melee weapon" like the 14th level feature does?



Good question. I will suggest to you that having written all of that about swords in the introduction of the Bladesinger class, and the animal named styles in the green box for some other melee weapons, the authors didn't feel the need to be redundant in their phrasing of the 2d level class feature that unlocks the Bladesinger school. Or, they overlooked it in the final edit and now rue the day that text miners discovered their oversight. ;) The evidence points to this being linked to melee weapons, not any kind of bow. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Ask your DM



If your DM is willing to let you use a hand crossbow with the Bladesong, you'll need to work together on that, and deal with the 14th level class feature when you get there. Hopefully, your adventures will take you that deep into the campaign!






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    1 hour ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$

Probably not : it's written for melee weapons (thrown should work)



Here is the text from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that indicates that this style of fighting is used with swords.

Under Bladesinging




They are elf wizards who master a school of sword fighting grounded in a tradition of arcane magic. (SCAG, p. 141)




Under the Green Box (Bladesinging Styles) on the next page:




From its inception, as a martial and magical art, Bladesinging has
been tied to the sword, more specifically the longsword. (SCAG, p. 142)




Other melee weapons can be used with the blade song.



When you read further into Bladesinging




Cat: Styles that employ a sword belong to this family...
Bird: Styles that focus on the use of a hafted weapon, uch as an axe or a hammer, have been grouped together as bird styles ... Eagle styles bladesingers use small hand axes, and many maneuvers in the style focus on fluid ways to throw the weapon and draw a new one.
Snake. Practioners of these styles use a flail, chain, or whip... (SCAG, p. 142)




Nowhere does it mention hand crossbows, or any other bow. If they had intended to include one handed bows in this style, it would likely have been put into that green box with an animal name. Given the thrown hammer style, a thrown dagger style would see to fit, perhaps as a variation on the Cat fighting style. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Why doesn't the level 2 feature say "melee weapon" like the 14th level feature does?



Good question. I will suggest to you that having written all of that about swords in the introduction of the Bladesinger class, and the animal named styles in the green box for some other melee weapons, the authors didn't feel the need to be redundant in their phrasing of the 2d level class feature that unlocks the Bladesinger school. Or, they overlooked it in the final edit and now rue the day that text miners discovered their oversight. ;) The evidence points to this being linked to melee weapons, not any kind of bow. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Ask your DM



If your DM is willing to let you use a hand crossbow with the Bladesong, you'll need to work together on that, and deal with the 14th level class feature when you get there. Hopefully, your adventures will take you that deep into the campaign!






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Probably not : it's written for melee weapons (thrown should work)



Here is the text from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide that indicates that this style of fighting is used with swords.

Under Bladesinging




They are elf wizards who master a school of sword fighting grounded in a tradition of arcane magic. (SCAG, p. 141)




Under the Green Box (Bladesinging Styles) on the next page:




From its inception, as a martial and magical art, Bladesinging has
been tied to the sword, more specifically the longsword. (SCAG, p. 142)




Other melee weapons can be used with the blade song.



When you read further into Bladesinging




Cat: Styles that employ a sword belong to this family...
Bird: Styles that focus on the use of a hafted weapon, uch as an axe or a hammer, have been grouped together as bird styles ... Eagle styles bladesingers use small hand axes, and many maneuvers in the style focus on fluid ways to throw the weapon and draw a new one.
Snake. Practioners of these styles use a flail, chain, or whip... (SCAG, p. 142)




Nowhere does it mention hand crossbows, or any other bow. If they had intended to include one handed bows in this style, it would likely have been put into that green box with an animal name. Given the thrown hammer style, a thrown dagger style would see to fit, perhaps as a variation on the Cat fighting style. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Why doesn't the level 2 feature say "melee weapon" like the 14th level feature does?



Good question. I will suggest to you that having written all of that about swords in the introduction of the Bladesinger class, and the animal named styles in the green box for some other melee weapons, the authors didn't feel the need to be redundant in their phrasing of the 2d level class feature that unlocks the Bladesinger school. Or, they overlooked it in the final edit and now rue the day that text miners discovered their oversight. ;) The evidence points to this being linked to melee weapons, not any kind of bow. (Interestingly, the errata does not address this).



Ask your DM



If your DM is willing to let you use a hand crossbow with the Bladesong, you'll need to work together on that, and deal with the 14th level class feature when you get there. Hopefully, your adventures will take you that deep into the campaign!







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 1 hour ago

























answered 3 hours ago









KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

82.6k20257444




82.6k20257444







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    1 hour ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
    $endgroup$
    – KorvinStarmast
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
@BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
@BenjaminOlson Hmm, I would have thought that they might address that in the errata to SCAG, but they did not. Oversight or intended "opening" is unclear. I decided to ask Crawford now that this question has aroused my curiosity. Thanks for getting me curious about that ...
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago











Slayer The Kid is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









draft saved

draft discarded


















Slayer The Kid is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












Slayer The Kid is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











Slayer The Kid is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f144188%2fcan-a-bladesinger-wizard-use-bladesong-with-a-hand-crossbow%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

acmart: Multiple authors: all with same affiliation, one author an additional affiliationHow to Write Names of Multiple Authors with Shared Affiliation in ACM 2017 Template?Multiple authors with different primary affiliation, but same additional affiliationSame affiliation for all authors without extra packagesIOS-Book-Article.cls: one author with multiple affiliationacmart: Shared Author AffiliationMultiple authors with different primary affiliation, but same additional affiliationAuthor affiliation with only 1 authorAdding Multiple Authors with Different Affiliation in LaTeX ArticleLaTeX: Multiple authors stays on same lineHow to Label Multiple Authors with Same DescriptionHow to make two authors use the same affiliationTwo authors with same affiliation on finished front page

How to write “ä” and other umlauts and accented letters in bibliography?Accents in BibTeXSorting references with special characters alphabeticallyUse ae ligature in bibliographyEastern European nameInverted circumflex in BibTexBibTex, non-ascii initials and nameptr fproblems with accent in LatexHow to add a Ø to my bibliography from Jabref?References without accentsTroubles when trying to cite St“omer-Verlet in ”title" field of a bib entryComprehensive list of accented charactersHow to type the letter “i” with two dots (diaeresis) in math mode?Problem with glossary text and accented lettersSpecial character in bibliographyAccented letters, Unicode and LaTeX accentsHow to stop natbib from modifying bibliography styleCitation of a paper with non-standard characters by BibtexWrite accented characters to file using writeHow to group the bibliography alphabetically, if some surnames start with “accented” characters?How can I automatically capitalize significant words in my bibliography?

Problem using RevTeX4-1 with “! Undefined control sequence. @bibitemShut”