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What's the difference between /ɪ/ and /i(ː)/?
How can I differentiate between syllable-initial [ɣ] and [ə] using Praat or other software?Is the concept of 'long vowel' still relevant in modern English phonology?Question regarding leading “r” sounds in JapaneseWhat's the evidence for and against isochrony?Is there a meaning difference between “each” and “every” as NP modifier?Three questions regarding the distinctions between certain broad and slender sounds in IrishWhy vowels sound different from each otherIf there is really an /ə/ between /dəɹ/ in “quandary”How linguists determine the sounds a speaker is performingThe difference between [w] and [u] (especially between the states of the lips)
In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".
My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.
Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?
If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?
english phonetics
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
|
show 1 more comment
In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".
My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.
Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?
If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?
english phonetics
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
3
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
1
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".
My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.
Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?
If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?
english phonetics
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".
My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.
Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?
If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?
english phonetics
english phonetics
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
asked 11 hours ago
Matt EllenMatt Ellen
17015
17015
3
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
1
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
1
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago
3
3
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
1
1
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.
Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.
The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).
The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)
Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).
We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.
Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.
The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).
The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)
Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).
We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
add a comment |
They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.
Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.
The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).
The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)
Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).
We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
add a comment |
They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.
Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.
The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).
The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)
Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).
We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.
Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.
The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).
The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)
Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).
We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
edited 3 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
answered 10 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
9,78512055
9,78512055
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
add a comment |
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
What's with the "quotation marks"?
– Araucaria
4 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
@Araucaria: Just marking words that are used in non-obvious ways in phonetics contexts, although I probably overdid it.
– sumelic
3 hours ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
Have you thought about using small caps. Your quotation marks look like scare quotes!
– Araucaria
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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3
It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.
– Denis Nardin
10 hours ago
Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?
– Michaelyus
10 hours ago
I wouldn't have guessed! It sounds the same in my head :D
– Matt Ellen
9 hours ago
1
Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?
– Hearth
7 hours ago
@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.
– sumelic
6 hours ago