What is the significance behind “40 days” that often appears in the Bible?What is the proper term for the “year 0”?What is the historical relationship between Yule and Christmas?What is the pre-schism Christian church called today?Did the discovery of zero affect our calendar and how we count days? Are we off by a tenth?What was the image of Jhwh before it was almost erased from history?

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What is the significance behind “40 days” that often appears in the Bible?


What is the proper term for the “year 0”?What is the historical relationship between Yule and Christmas?What is the pre-schism Christian church called today?Did the discovery of zero affect our calendar and how we count days? Are we off by a tenth?What was the image of Jhwh before it was almost erased from history?













20















Several times within the Old and New Testament of the Bible there are notes pertaining to a long time as "40 days," as in 40 days of fasting, rain, traveling, etc. Why 40? Is there a factual association? The only thing I've noticed are references to 40 days needed for mummification in natron. Any insight? Thanks!










share|improve this question







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Ron P is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

    – David Robinson
    50 mins ago











  • Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

    – Lucian
    21 mins ago















20















Several times within the Old and New Testament of the Bible there are notes pertaining to a long time as "40 days," as in 40 days of fasting, rain, traveling, etc. Why 40? Is there a factual association? The only thing I've noticed are references to 40 days needed for mummification in natron. Any insight? Thanks!










share|improve this question







New contributor




Ron P is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

    – David Robinson
    50 mins ago











  • Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

    – Lucian
    21 mins ago













20












20








20


1






Several times within the Old and New Testament of the Bible there are notes pertaining to a long time as "40 days," as in 40 days of fasting, rain, traveling, etc. Why 40? Is there a factual association? The only thing I've noticed are references to 40 days needed for mummification in natron. Any insight? Thanks!










share|improve this question







New contributor




Ron P is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












Several times within the Old and New Testament of the Bible there are notes pertaining to a long time as "40 days," as in 40 days of fasting, rain, traveling, etc. Why 40? Is there a factual association? The only thing I've noticed are references to 40 days needed for mummification in natron. Any insight? Thanks!







religious-history timeline






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Ron P is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Ron P is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

    – David Robinson
    50 mins ago











  • Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

    – Lucian
    21 mins ago

















  • Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

    – David Robinson
    50 mins ago











  • Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

    – Lucian
    21 mins ago
















Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

– David Robinson
50 mins ago





Answers have concentrated on why use a specific number at all, or have simply given further examples of its use but I understood the question to be why use this particular one. Did it have any numerological significance? Did it sound like something else? Was it a round number in any early counting system (as it would be in Europe where it was normal at one stage to count in 20s (e.g. French quatre-vingt=4x20=80) so 40 would actually be a rounder number than 50)? Was it a month in any early calendar? Etc.

– David Robinson
50 mins ago













Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

– Lucian
21 mins ago





Egyptians, who greatly influenced biblical Judaism (e.g., Rosh Hashanah vs. Thout 1), had ten day weeks, and their mummification process lasted about forty days (see Egyptian mummies and ancient Egyptian mummification process).

– Lucian
21 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















34














I believe it to be an euphemism similar to how today one might say something like gazillions for a large number.



In a society that is mostly innumerate as well as illiterate, where neither pencils nor paper exist and both slateboards and chalk are fragile and rare, the scale of numbers readily accessible to the common population are much smaller than today. The meaning of 40 to me comes across as: "longer than a month, and more days than one would care to count"; or as Wikepedia puts it in that link:




similar to "umpteen".







share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

    – Pieter Geerkens
    9 hours ago






  • 3





    @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

    – chepner
    6 hours ago






  • 7





    Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

    – Joshua
    6 hours ago






  • 8





    @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

    – R.M.
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

    – Steven Burnap
    6 hours ago


















27














There seems to be a bit of pushback on Pieter's (correct) answer, so perhaps a bit more detail is in order.



It is not at all uncommon in languages to have words that, while technically a specific number, are usually used just to indicate an unspecified large amount. One of the technical terms for this is non-numerical vague quantifiers.



The most well-known of these is of course the Hebrew Bible's "40", but they also had a word for an even larger indeterminate number: רבבה. This word came into English (via Greek) as "myriad", but the technical literal value for it is 10,000.



Probably the next most famous for us English speakers is 1,001, which came into English from the Arabic work 1,001 Nights (which usually doesn't contain exactly 1,001 stories, unless you get an edition that purposely tried to edit to that amount for some weird reason). You can find all kinds of English-language books with titles on the theme "1,001 Uses For...", and nobody really expects those to contain exactly 1,001 of the thing in question.



Now most secular (and mainline Christian) Biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest written source for the Hebrew scriptures (including the story of Noah that prominently featured the indeterminate 40) committed the stories to writing around the 6th Century BC.



This was about 4 centuries before the Hebrews started using their distinctive Greek-borrowed numeric system (which resembles Roman Numerals a bit in implementation). At that time the numeric system in use would have been the old Babylonian Sexagesimal system. This survives today mostly in our units of time and angle "degree" (and thus Earth surface coordinate) measurements. This was technically a hybrid base 60 system, but represented with a weird base 10 tally system within the 60.



enter image description here



If that sounds complicated to you, you're probably still better off than the common Semite, who as Pieter pointed out, probably didn't really know how to read or use this system themselves beyond the bare basics required for everyday life. Doing reckoning under this system was much harder than what we have today, and there was no equivalent to the modern western education system, where every child gets basic mathematics instruction. Working with numbers that high was difficult, and very few in the audience of these stories would have been trained to do so.



You may notice that the superglyph for 40 specifically is the first one where there isn't enough space for all the 10's tallies on one line, so you have to start compressing them together into 2 lines in the same amount of space. Perhaps its a coincidence, but this is certainly the point where the writing/carving for numbers starts to look like a bit of a mess. Its a lot.






share|improve this answer

























  • That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

    – vbnet3d
    4 hours ago






  • 2





    @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

    – T.E.D.
    4 hours ago







  • 1





    Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

    – LangLangC
    3 hours ago











  • unspecified large amount

    – Mazura
    3 hours ago


















5














Biblically, Forty is a number associated with testing and trials
https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-numerology-700168



Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years etc.



It's a number that indicates enough time passed for God to achieve a goal. Fullness of time.






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    3 Answers
    3






    active

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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    34














    I believe it to be an euphemism similar to how today one might say something like gazillions for a large number.



    In a society that is mostly innumerate as well as illiterate, where neither pencils nor paper exist and both slateboards and chalk are fragile and rare, the scale of numbers readily accessible to the common population are much smaller than today. The meaning of 40 to me comes across as: "longer than a month, and more days than one would care to count"; or as Wikepedia puts it in that link:




    similar to "umpteen".







    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

      – Pieter Geerkens
      9 hours ago






    • 3





      @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

      – chepner
      6 hours ago






    • 7





      Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

      – Joshua
      6 hours ago






    • 8





      @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

      – R.M.
      6 hours ago






    • 2





      In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

      – Steven Burnap
      6 hours ago















    34














    I believe it to be an euphemism similar to how today one might say something like gazillions for a large number.



    In a society that is mostly innumerate as well as illiterate, where neither pencils nor paper exist and both slateboards and chalk are fragile and rare, the scale of numbers readily accessible to the common population are much smaller than today. The meaning of 40 to me comes across as: "longer than a month, and more days than one would care to count"; or as Wikepedia puts it in that link:




    similar to "umpteen".







    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

      – Pieter Geerkens
      9 hours ago






    • 3





      @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

      – chepner
      6 hours ago






    • 7





      Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

      – Joshua
      6 hours ago






    • 8





      @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

      – R.M.
      6 hours ago






    • 2





      In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

      – Steven Burnap
      6 hours ago













    34












    34








    34







    I believe it to be an euphemism similar to how today one might say something like gazillions for a large number.



    In a society that is mostly innumerate as well as illiterate, where neither pencils nor paper exist and both slateboards and chalk are fragile and rare, the scale of numbers readily accessible to the common population are much smaller than today. The meaning of 40 to me comes across as: "longer than a month, and more days than one would care to count"; or as Wikepedia puts it in that link:




    similar to "umpteen".







    share|improve this answer















    I believe it to be an euphemism similar to how today one might say something like gazillions for a large number.



    In a society that is mostly innumerate as well as illiterate, where neither pencils nor paper exist and both slateboards and chalk are fragile and rare, the scale of numbers readily accessible to the common population are much smaller than today. The meaning of 40 to me comes across as: "longer than a month, and more days than one would care to count"; or as Wikepedia puts it in that link:




    similar to "umpteen".








    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 10 hours ago

























    answered 11 hours ago









    Pieter GeerkensPieter Geerkens

    40.6k6117192




    40.6k6117192







    • 2





      @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

      – Pieter Geerkens
      9 hours ago






    • 3





      @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

      – chepner
      6 hours ago






    • 7





      Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

      – Joshua
      6 hours ago






    • 8





      @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

      – R.M.
      6 hours ago






    • 2





      In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

      – Steven Burnap
      6 hours ago












    • 2





      @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

      – Pieter Geerkens
      9 hours ago






    • 3





      @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

      – chepner
      6 hours ago






    • 7





      Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

      – Joshua
      6 hours ago






    • 8





      @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

      – R.M.
      6 hours ago






    • 2





      In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

      – Steven Burnap
      6 hours ago







    2




    2





    @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

    – Pieter Geerkens
    9 hours ago





    @Mohair: I chose these words quite carefully: "more days than one would care to count". They mean exactly and precisely what I intended to say; not less; and not more. Please do not read into my post meanings that I specifically excluded, with intent, through my choice of words.

    – Pieter Geerkens
    9 hours ago




    3




    3





    @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

    – chepner
    6 hours ago





    @Mohair The extreme ages are almost certainly also poetically motivated exaggerations for "really old". You might also notice that Moses' age is exactly 3 * 40, where each 40-year period corresponds roughly to a different phase of his life: early adult life in Egypt; mid-life exile from, return to, and final departure from Egypt; and wandering in the desert.

    – chepner
    6 hours ago




    7




    7





    Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

    – Joshua
    6 hours ago





    Hebrew uses 40 like six year olds use 100.

    – Joshua
    6 hours ago




    8




    8





    @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

    – R.M.
    6 hours ago





    @Joshua Or adults use "million" ("If I had a million dollars."/"One in a million"/"There's a million reasons why that won't work."/etc.)

    – R.M.
    6 hours ago




    2




    2





    In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

    – Steven Burnap
    6 hours ago





    In Asia, "ten thousand" can sometimes mean "all" . As an example, the Japanese word "万民" means "everyone", and is formed from the characters for "ten thousand" and "people". Note that Japanese has a character ("京") that has "10 quadrillion" as one of its meanings. So just because a number is poetically used as "all" doesn't mean that people aren't entirely conversant with larger numbers, or are otherwise innumerate.

    – Steven Burnap
    6 hours ago











    27














    There seems to be a bit of pushback on Pieter's (correct) answer, so perhaps a bit more detail is in order.



    It is not at all uncommon in languages to have words that, while technically a specific number, are usually used just to indicate an unspecified large amount. One of the technical terms for this is non-numerical vague quantifiers.



    The most well-known of these is of course the Hebrew Bible's "40", but they also had a word for an even larger indeterminate number: רבבה. This word came into English (via Greek) as "myriad", but the technical literal value for it is 10,000.



    Probably the next most famous for us English speakers is 1,001, which came into English from the Arabic work 1,001 Nights (which usually doesn't contain exactly 1,001 stories, unless you get an edition that purposely tried to edit to that amount for some weird reason). You can find all kinds of English-language books with titles on the theme "1,001 Uses For...", and nobody really expects those to contain exactly 1,001 of the thing in question.



    Now most secular (and mainline Christian) Biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest written source for the Hebrew scriptures (including the story of Noah that prominently featured the indeterminate 40) committed the stories to writing around the 6th Century BC.



    This was about 4 centuries before the Hebrews started using their distinctive Greek-borrowed numeric system (which resembles Roman Numerals a bit in implementation). At that time the numeric system in use would have been the old Babylonian Sexagesimal system. This survives today mostly in our units of time and angle "degree" (and thus Earth surface coordinate) measurements. This was technically a hybrid base 60 system, but represented with a weird base 10 tally system within the 60.



    enter image description here



    If that sounds complicated to you, you're probably still better off than the common Semite, who as Pieter pointed out, probably didn't really know how to read or use this system themselves beyond the bare basics required for everyday life. Doing reckoning under this system was much harder than what we have today, and there was no equivalent to the modern western education system, where every child gets basic mathematics instruction. Working with numbers that high was difficult, and very few in the audience of these stories would have been trained to do so.



    You may notice that the superglyph for 40 specifically is the first one where there isn't enough space for all the 10's tallies on one line, so you have to start compressing them together into 2 lines in the same amount of space. Perhaps its a coincidence, but this is certainly the point where the writing/carving for numbers starts to look like a bit of a mess. Its a lot.






    share|improve this answer

























    • That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

      – vbnet3d
      4 hours ago






    • 2





      @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

      – T.E.D.
      4 hours ago







    • 1





      Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

      – LangLangC
      3 hours ago











    • unspecified large amount

      – Mazura
      3 hours ago















    27














    There seems to be a bit of pushback on Pieter's (correct) answer, so perhaps a bit more detail is in order.



    It is not at all uncommon in languages to have words that, while technically a specific number, are usually used just to indicate an unspecified large amount. One of the technical terms for this is non-numerical vague quantifiers.



    The most well-known of these is of course the Hebrew Bible's "40", but they also had a word for an even larger indeterminate number: רבבה. This word came into English (via Greek) as "myriad", but the technical literal value for it is 10,000.



    Probably the next most famous for us English speakers is 1,001, which came into English from the Arabic work 1,001 Nights (which usually doesn't contain exactly 1,001 stories, unless you get an edition that purposely tried to edit to that amount for some weird reason). You can find all kinds of English-language books with titles on the theme "1,001 Uses For...", and nobody really expects those to contain exactly 1,001 of the thing in question.



    Now most secular (and mainline Christian) Biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest written source for the Hebrew scriptures (including the story of Noah that prominently featured the indeterminate 40) committed the stories to writing around the 6th Century BC.



    This was about 4 centuries before the Hebrews started using their distinctive Greek-borrowed numeric system (which resembles Roman Numerals a bit in implementation). At that time the numeric system in use would have been the old Babylonian Sexagesimal system. This survives today mostly in our units of time and angle "degree" (and thus Earth surface coordinate) measurements. This was technically a hybrid base 60 system, but represented with a weird base 10 tally system within the 60.



    enter image description here



    If that sounds complicated to you, you're probably still better off than the common Semite, who as Pieter pointed out, probably didn't really know how to read or use this system themselves beyond the bare basics required for everyday life. Doing reckoning under this system was much harder than what we have today, and there was no equivalent to the modern western education system, where every child gets basic mathematics instruction. Working with numbers that high was difficult, and very few in the audience of these stories would have been trained to do so.



    You may notice that the superglyph for 40 specifically is the first one where there isn't enough space for all the 10's tallies on one line, so you have to start compressing them together into 2 lines in the same amount of space. Perhaps its a coincidence, but this is certainly the point where the writing/carving for numbers starts to look like a bit of a mess. Its a lot.






    share|improve this answer

























    • That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

      – vbnet3d
      4 hours ago






    • 2





      @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

      – T.E.D.
      4 hours ago







    • 1





      Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

      – LangLangC
      3 hours ago











    • unspecified large amount

      – Mazura
      3 hours ago













    27












    27








    27







    There seems to be a bit of pushback on Pieter's (correct) answer, so perhaps a bit more detail is in order.



    It is not at all uncommon in languages to have words that, while technically a specific number, are usually used just to indicate an unspecified large amount. One of the technical terms for this is non-numerical vague quantifiers.



    The most well-known of these is of course the Hebrew Bible's "40", but they also had a word for an even larger indeterminate number: רבבה. This word came into English (via Greek) as "myriad", but the technical literal value for it is 10,000.



    Probably the next most famous for us English speakers is 1,001, which came into English from the Arabic work 1,001 Nights (which usually doesn't contain exactly 1,001 stories, unless you get an edition that purposely tried to edit to that amount for some weird reason). You can find all kinds of English-language books with titles on the theme "1,001 Uses For...", and nobody really expects those to contain exactly 1,001 of the thing in question.



    Now most secular (and mainline Christian) Biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest written source for the Hebrew scriptures (including the story of Noah that prominently featured the indeterminate 40) committed the stories to writing around the 6th Century BC.



    This was about 4 centuries before the Hebrews started using their distinctive Greek-borrowed numeric system (which resembles Roman Numerals a bit in implementation). At that time the numeric system in use would have been the old Babylonian Sexagesimal system. This survives today mostly in our units of time and angle "degree" (and thus Earth surface coordinate) measurements. This was technically a hybrid base 60 system, but represented with a weird base 10 tally system within the 60.



    enter image description here



    If that sounds complicated to you, you're probably still better off than the common Semite, who as Pieter pointed out, probably didn't really know how to read or use this system themselves beyond the bare basics required for everyday life. Doing reckoning under this system was much harder than what we have today, and there was no equivalent to the modern western education system, where every child gets basic mathematics instruction. Working with numbers that high was difficult, and very few in the audience of these stories would have been trained to do so.



    You may notice that the superglyph for 40 specifically is the first one where there isn't enough space for all the 10's tallies on one line, so you have to start compressing them together into 2 lines in the same amount of space. Perhaps its a coincidence, but this is certainly the point where the writing/carving for numbers starts to look like a bit of a mess. Its a lot.






    share|improve this answer















    There seems to be a bit of pushback on Pieter's (correct) answer, so perhaps a bit more detail is in order.



    It is not at all uncommon in languages to have words that, while technically a specific number, are usually used just to indicate an unspecified large amount. One of the technical terms for this is non-numerical vague quantifiers.



    The most well-known of these is of course the Hebrew Bible's "40", but they also had a word for an even larger indeterminate number: רבבה. This word came into English (via Greek) as "myriad", but the technical literal value for it is 10,000.



    Probably the next most famous for us English speakers is 1,001, which came into English from the Arabic work 1,001 Nights (which usually doesn't contain exactly 1,001 stories, unless you get an edition that purposely tried to edit to that amount for some weird reason). You can find all kinds of English-language books with titles on the theme "1,001 Uses For...", and nobody really expects those to contain exactly 1,001 of the thing in question.



    Now most secular (and mainline Christian) Biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest written source for the Hebrew scriptures (including the story of Noah that prominently featured the indeterminate 40) committed the stories to writing around the 6th Century BC.



    This was about 4 centuries before the Hebrews started using their distinctive Greek-borrowed numeric system (which resembles Roman Numerals a bit in implementation). At that time the numeric system in use would have been the old Babylonian Sexagesimal system. This survives today mostly in our units of time and angle "degree" (and thus Earth surface coordinate) measurements. This was technically a hybrid base 60 system, but represented with a weird base 10 tally system within the 60.



    enter image description here



    If that sounds complicated to you, you're probably still better off than the common Semite, who as Pieter pointed out, probably didn't really know how to read or use this system themselves beyond the bare basics required for everyday life. Doing reckoning under this system was much harder than what we have today, and there was no equivalent to the modern western education system, where every child gets basic mathematics instruction. Working with numbers that high was difficult, and very few in the audience of these stories would have been trained to do so.



    You may notice that the superglyph for 40 specifically is the first one where there isn't enough space for all the 10's tallies on one line, so you have to start compressing them together into 2 lines in the same amount of space. Perhaps its a coincidence, but this is certainly the point where the writing/carving for numbers starts to look like a bit of a mess. Its a lot.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 4 hours ago

























    answered 6 hours ago









    T.E.D.T.E.D.

    76k10171313




    76k10171313












    • That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

      – vbnet3d
      4 hours ago






    • 2





      @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

      – T.E.D.
      4 hours ago







    • 1





      Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

      – LangLangC
      3 hours ago











    • unspecified large amount

      – Mazura
      3 hours ago

















    • That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

      – vbnet3d
      4 hours ago






    • 2





      @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

      – T.E.D.
      4 hours ago







    • 1





      Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

      – LangLangC
      3 hours ago











    • unspecified large amount

      – Mazura
      3 hours ago
















    That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

    – vbnet3d
    4 hours ago





    That's really interesting. Any thoughts on how this relates to New Testament (Greek) use of 40?

    – vbnet3d
    4 hours ago




    2




    2





    @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

    – T.E.D.
    4 hours ago






    @vbnet3d - Given that the other known users of this "indeterminate 40" (early Christians, Muslims, and Yazidis) all came later and were influenced heavily by the Hebrew scriptures, the logical conclusion is that they borrowed it. Its also possible this was just a widespread aspect of the regional culture that they all inherited.

    – T.E.D.
    4 hours ago





    1




    1





    Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

    – LangLangC
    3 hours ago





    Have you back-checked how often other numbers appear in the text? 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 50, 70? OT and NT concordances are different for "40". But especially in OT this interpretation is not incorrect, imo in more than two ways, but this A looks only at just one aspect. My 2 cents.

    – LangLangC
    3 hours ago













    unspecified large amount

    – Mazura
    3 hours ago





    unspecified large amount

    – Mazura
    3 hours ago











    5














    Biblically, Forty is a number associated with testing and trials
    https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-numerology-700168



    Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years etc.



    It's a number that indicates enough time passed for God to achieve a goal. Fullness of time.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
























      5














      Biblically, Forty is a number associated with testing and trials
      https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-numerology-700168



      Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years etc.



      It's a number that indicates enough time passed for God to achieve a goal. Fullness of time.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















        5












        5








        5







        Biblically, Forty is a number associated with testing and trials
        https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-numerology-700168



        Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years etc.



        It's a number that indicates enough time passed for God to achieve a goal. Fullness of time.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.










        Biblically, Forty is a number associated with testing and trials
        https://www.thoughtco.com/biblical-numerology-700168



        Jesus wandered in the wilderness 40 days, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years etc.



        It's a number that indicates enough time passed for God to achieve a goal. Fullness of time.







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






        New contributor




        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        answered 10 hours ago









        DavidDavid

        591




        591




        New contributor




        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





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        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        David is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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