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Does it makes sense to buy a cycle to learn riding?


What to buy when looking for a low maintenance city bike that allows sportive ridingDoes it matter where you buy the bike?Choice of two Stevens bikes, which one makes more sense?













1















So I am a complete newbie in the cycling world but I want to learn to cycle and use it to explore the city and the places yonder. I also intend to use it to ride daily to office gradually.



So my question is that should I buy a cheap/used bike to learn to cycle first, or buy the bike I like Trek DS or similar and learn to ride on it? I ask this question as I might be overlooking the wear-tear or other points before I make a hasty purchase. I am in my mid-twenties (yes, you can shame me for not knowing to cycle) and I like in a bike friendly city on the east coast. Thanks










share|improve this question







New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 1





    Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

    – Andy P
    3 hours ago











  • When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

    – David Richerby
    2 hours ago











  • A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    40 mins ago











  • Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

    – J...
    4 mins ago
















1















So I am a complete newbie in the cycling world but I want to learn to cycle and use it to explore the city and the places yonder. I also intend to use it to ride daily to office gradually.



So my question is that should I buy a cheap/used bike to learn to cycle first, or buy the bike I like Trek DS or similar and learn to ride on it? I ask this question as I might be overlooking the wear-tear or other points before I make a hasty purchase. I am in my mid-twenties (yes, you can shame me for not knowing to cycle) and I like in a bike friendly city on the east coast. Thanks










share|improve this question







New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 1





    Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

    – Andy P
    3 hours ago











  • When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

    – David Richerby
    2 hours ago











  • A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    40 mins ago











  • Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

    – J...
    4 mins ago














1












1








1








So I am a complete newbie in the cycling world but I want to learn to cycle and use it to explore the city and the places yonder. I also intend to use it to ride daily to office gradually.



So my question is that should I buy a cheap/used bike to learn to cycle first, or buy the bike I like Trek DS or similar and learn to ride on it? I ask this question as I might be overlooking the wear-tear or other points before I make a hasty purchase. I am in my mid-twenties (yes, you can shame me for not knowing to cycle) and I like in a bike friendly city on the east coast. Thanks










share|improve this question







New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












So I am a complete newbie in the cycling world but I want to learn to cycle and use it to explore the city and the places yonder. I also intend to use it to ride daily to office gradually.



So my question is that should I buy a cheap/used bike to learn to cycle first, or buy the bike I like Trek DS or similar and learn to ride on it? I ask this question as I might be overlooking the wear-tear or other points before I make a hasty purchase. I am in my mid-twenties (yes, you can shame me for not knowing to cycle) and I like in a bike friendly city on the east coast. Thanks







shopping learning






share|improve this question







New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 3 hours ago









cycle-noobcycle-noob

61




61




New contributor




cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






cycle-noob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1





    Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

    – Andy P
    3 hours ago











  • When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

    – David Richerby
    2 hours ago











  • A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    40 mins ago











  • Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

    – J...
    4 mins ago













  • 1





    Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

    – Andy P
    3 hours ago











  • When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

    – David Richerby
    2 hours ago











  • A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

    – Daniel R Hicks
    40 mins ago











  • Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

    – J...
    4 mins ago








1




1





Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

– Andy P
3 hours ago





Personally i would start off with a used hybrid or cyclocross bike, as they are versatile options. In this time you will not only learn to ride, but also learn what type of riding you like and what features are important to you. You may find the bike you think you want now isn't what you actually want at all.

– Andy P
3 hours ago













When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

– David Richerby
2 hours ago





When you say you're a complete newbie, do you mean that you've never ridden a bike before? Or did you ride as a child, for example?

– David Richerby
2 hours ago













A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

– Daniel R Hicks
40 mins ago





A borrowed bike would be best, if you can do that.

– Daniel R Hicks
40 mins ago













Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

– J...
4 mins ago






Nobody can answer this question for you - we have no idea how much space you have to store a bicycle, how much money you make, whether you have somewhere to store it at work, etc. If you're rich and have to lock the bike outside, you might not care about the risk of having a $1k bike stolen - if you have to save for three months to buy the bike and have nowhere to store it safely, then the answer changes entirely. If you're not sure about how much cycling you may end up doing, spending now on the expensive bike may also not be a smart plan. We can't know how committed you are likely to be.

– J...
4 mins ago











4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















1














I learnt to ride in my 20s. I couldn't find a big enough bike second hand, except by spending several times the price of a cheap new bike. So I bought a cheap new bike and learnt to ride on it (a steel so-called mountain bike but really a hybrid with knbbly tyres). Even that was actually only just big enough. I didn't really get confident in bike handling until I bought a much nicer hybrid that fitted me properly.



If you can possibly get a decent hybrid or hardtail mountain bike second hand that fits you that's the way to go. This will help you find what features you want, as well as being something to learn on; you may even find that this is a good commuter long-termn and you get something nicer/more specialised for having fun.



There's no shame in learning to ride as an adult, in fact quite the opposite - good for you.






share|improve this answer






























    1














    Buy the bike you like and learn to ride on it.
    The Trek DS or something like it is a good bike to start on.



    Any bike in the pricing/style zone of the DS will last years.



    Welcome to cycling, it's a great sport with an amazing machine.






    share|improve this answer























    • Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

      – Michael
      1 hour ago


















    1














    If you don't know how to ride a bike yet, then you don't know what kind of bike you'll enjoy riding yet. So I wouldn't commit too much money up-front. In fact, if you have a friend who has a spare bike they'd let you learn on, I'd just borrow one for now and learn on that so you can start figuring out what you like/dislike/need. Failing that, I'd get an old beater on Craigslist.



    Once you've got all that figured out and are ready to get a "real" bike, test ride a bunch of bikes and take note of what you like and dislike about each of them. If you've got a good bike shop, the folks at the shop will be able to help you refine your choices based on that feedback.



    I'll also mention that becoming a competent cyclist is an ongoing process, and there's always room to improve one's skills. As you develop those skills, your wants may change further.






    share|improve this answer






























      0














      Welcome the dilemma of getting a starter bike when you are not sure what kind of bike you want and don't know if you will actually like cycling or will keep it up. The problem of course is that you don't want to spend too much money on something you might end up not using.



      The advantage of buying new is that you can go to all the local bike stores, get advice and test ride lots of different bikes. You can take your time choosing what you want and you'll be much more likely to get the bike that suits you in the size that fits you.



      Buying used means paying less, but you have to know what you are looking for. If you don't know how to evaluate your fit on the bike you could end up with a bike that does not fit you well. You also need some idea of how to evaluate a bikes condition. A worn drivetrain can make the bike inefficient, badly adjusted derailleurs can make shifting gears a pain, and poorly adjusted brakes can be downright dangerous.



      The other problem with used bikes is there are far fewer bikes to choose from at any given time. You have monitor spaces where used bikes are offered for sale (Craigslist and Facebook marketplaces seem to be the best options) and act on anything that does come up that matches what you want.






      share|improve this answer























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        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes








        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        1














        I learnt to ride in my 20s. I couldn't find a big enough bike second hand, except by spending several times the price of a cheap new bike. So I bought a cheap new bike and learnt to ride on it (a steel so-called mountain bike but really a hybrid with knbbly tyres). Even that was actually only just big enough. I didn't really get confident in bike handling until I bought a much nicer hybrid that fitted me properly.



        If you can possibly get a decent hybrid or hardtail mountain bike second hand that fits you that's the way to go. This will help you find what features you want, as well as being something to learn on; you may even find that this is a good commuter long-termn and you get something nicer/more specialised for having fun.



        There's no shame in learning to ride as an adult, in fact quite the opposite - good for you.






        share|improve this answer



























          1














          I learnt to ride in my 20s. I couldn't find a big enough bike second hand, except by spending several times the price of a cheap new bike. So I bought a cheap new bike and learnt to ride on it (a steel so-called mountain bike but really a hybrid with knbbly tyres). Even that was actually only just big enough. I didn't really get confident in bike handling until I bought a much nicer hybrid that fitted me properly.



          If you can possibly get a decent hybrid or hardtail mountain bike second hand that fits you that's the way to go. This will help you find what features you want, as well as being something to learn on; you may even find that this is a good commuter long-termn and you get something nicer/more specialised for having fun.



          There's no shame in learning to ride as an adult, in fact quite the opposite - good for you.






          share|improve this answer

























            1












            1








            1







            I learnt to ride in my 20s. I couldn't find a big enough bike second hand, except by spending several times the price of a cheap new bike. So I bought a cheap new bike and learnt to ride on it (a steel so-called mountain bike but really a hybrid with knbbly tyres). Even that was actually only just big enough. I didn't really get confident in bike handling until I bought a much nicer hybrid that fitted me properly.



            If you can possibly get a decent hybrid or hardtail mountain bike second hand that fits you that's the way to go. This will help you find what features you want, as well as being something to learn on; you may even find that this is a good commuter long-termn and you get something nicer/more specialised for having fun.



            There's no shame in learning to ride as an adult, in fact quite the opposite - good for you.






            share|improve this answer













            I learnt to ride in my 20s. I couldn't find a big enough bike second hand, except by spending several times the price of a cheap new bike. So I bought a cheap new bike and learnt to ride on it (a steel so-called mountain bike but really a hybrid with knbbly tyres). Even that was actually only just big enough. I didn't really get confident in bike handling until I bought a much nicer hybrid that fitted me properly.



            If you can possibly get a decent hybrid or hardtail mountain bike second hand that fits you that's the way to go. This will help you find what features you want, as well as being something to learn on; you may even find that this is a good commuter long-termn and you get something nicer/more specialised for having fun.



            There's no shame in learning to ride as an adult, in fact quite the opposite - good for you.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 hours ago









            Chris HChris H

            24.1k138107




            24.1k138107





















                1














                Buy the bike you like and learn to ride on it.
                The Trek DS or something like it is a good bike to start on.



                Any bike in the pricing/style zone of the DS will last years.



                Welcome to cycling, it's a great sport with an amazing machine.






                share|improve this answer























                • Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                  – Michael
                  1 hour ago















                1














                Buy the bike you like and learn to ride on it.
                The Trek DS or something like it is a good bike to start on.



                Any bike in the pricing/style zone of the DS will last years.



                Welcome to cycling, it's a great sport with an amazing machine.






                share|improve this answer























                • Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                  – Michael
                  1 hour ago













                1












                1








                1







                Buy the bike you like and learn to ride on it.
                The Trek DS or something like it is a good bike to start on.



                Any bike in the pricing/style zone of the DS will last years.



                Welcome to cycling, it's a great sport with an amazing machine.






                share|improve this answer













                Buy the bike you like and learn to ride on it.
                The Trek DS or something like it is a good bike to start on.



                Any bike in the pricing/style zone of the DS will last years.



                Welcome to cycling, it's a great sport with an amazing machine.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 hours ago









                David DDavid D

                5465




                5465












                • Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                  – Michael
                  1 hour ago

















                • Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                  – Michael
                  1 hour ago
















                Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                – Michael
                1 hour ago





                Agreed, the Trek DS looks like a nice bicycle. Unless OP wants to get into road bikes (or gravel/cyclocross/randonneur) it’s a great choice. I’d pick one of the FX instead of DS models unless the front suspension is really important (e.g, regular use on cobblestones).

                – Michael
                1 hour ago











                1














                If you don't know how to ride a bike yet, then you don't know what kind of bike you'll enjoy riding yet. So I wouldn't commit too much money up-front. In fact, if you have a friend who has a spare bike they'd let you learn on, I'd just borrow one for now and learn on that so you can start figuring out what you like/dislike/need. Failing that, I'd get an old beater on Craigslist.



                Once you've got all that figured out and are ready to get a "real" bike, test ride a bunch of bikes and take note of what you like and dislike about each of them. If you've got a good bike shop, the folks at the shop will be able to help you refine your choices based on that feedback.



                I'll also mention that becoming a competent cyclist is an ongoing process, and there's always room to improve one's skills. As you develop those skills, your wants may change further.






                share|improve this answer



























                  1














                  If you don't know how to ride a bike yet, then you don't know what kind of bike you'll enjoy riding yet. So I wouldn't commit too much money up-front. In fact, if you have a friend who has a spare bike they'd let you learn on, I'd just borrow one for now and learn on that so you can start figuring out what you like/dislike/need. Failing that, I'd get an old beater on Craigslist.



                  Once you've got all that figured out and are ready to get a "real" bike, test ride a bunch of bikes and take note of what you like and dislike about each of them. If you've got a good bike shop, the folks at the shop will be able to help you refine your choices based on that feedback.



                  I'll also mention that becoming a competent cyclist is an ongoing process, and there's always room to improve one's skills. As you develop those skills, your wants may change further.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    If you don't know how to ride a bike yet, then you don't know what kind of bike you'll enjoy riding yet. So I wouldn't commit too much money up-front. In fact, if you have a friend who has a spare bike they'd let you learn on, I'd just borrow one for now and learn on that so you can start figuring out what you like/dislike/need. Failing that, I'd get an old beater on Craigslist.



                    Once you've got all that figured out and are ready to get a "real" bike, test ride a bunch of bikes and take note of what you like and dislike about each of them. If you've got a good bike shop, the folks at the shop will be able to help you refine your choices based on that feedback.



                    I'll also mention that becoming a competent cyclist is an ongoing process, and there's always room to improve one's skills. As you develop those skills, your wants may change further.






                    share|improve this answer













                    If you don't know how to ride a bike yet, then you don't know what kind of bike you'll enjoy riding yet. So I wouldn't commit too much money up-front. In fact, if you have a friend who has a spare bike they'd let you learn on, I'd just borrow one for now and learn on that so you can start figuring out what you like/dislike/need. Failing that, I'd get an old beater on Craigslist.



                    Once you've got all that figured out and are ready to get a "real" bike, test ride a bunch of bikes and take note of what you like and dislike about each of them. If you've got a good bike shop, the folks at the shop will be able to help you refine your choices based on that feedback.



                    I'll also mention that becoming a competent cyclist is an ongoing process, and there's always room to improve one's skills. As you develop those skills, your wants may change further.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 1 hour ago









                    Adam RiceAdam Rice

                    6,0121534




                    6,0121534





















                        0














                        Welcome the dilemma of getting a starter bike when you are not sure what kind of bike you want and don't know if you will actually like cycling or will keep it up. The problem of course is that you don't want to spend too much money on something you might end up not using.



                        The advantage of buying new is that you can go to all the local bike stores, get advice and test ride lots of different bikes. You can take your time choosing what you want and you'll be much more likely to get the bike that suits you in the size that fits you.



                        Buying used means paying less, but you have to know what you are looking for. If you don't know how to evaluate your fit on the bike you could end up with a bike that does not fit you well. You also need some idea of how to evaluate a bikes condition. A worn drivetrain can make the bike inefficient, badly adjusted derailleurs can make shifting gears a pain, and poorly adjusted brakes can be downright dangerous.



                        The other problem with used bikes is there are far fewer bikes to choose from at any given time. You have monitor spaces where used bikes are offered for sale (Craigslist and Facebook marketplaces seem to be the best options) and act on anything that does come up that matches what you want.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          0














                          Welcome the dilemma of getting a starter bike when you are not sure what kind of bike you want and don't know if you will actually like cycling or will keep it up. The problem of course is that you don't want to spend too much money on something you might end up not using.



                          The advantage of buying new is that you can go to all the local bike stores, get advice and test ride lots of different bikes. You can take your time choosing what you want and you'll be much more likely to get the bike that suits you in the size that fits you.



                          Buying used means paying less, but you have to know what you are looking for. If you don't know how to evaluate your fit on the bike you could end up with a bike that does not fit you well. You also need some idea of how to evaluate a bikes condition. A worn drivetrain can make the bike inefficient, badly adjusted derailleurs can make shifting gears a pain, and poorly adjusted brakes can be downright dangerous.



                          The other problem with used bikes is there are far fewer bikes to choose from at any given time. You have monitor spaces where used bikes are offered for sale (Craigslist and Facebook marketplaces seem to be the best options) and act on anything that does come up that matches what you want.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            Welcome the dilemma of getting a starter bike when you are not sure what kind of bike you want and don't know if you will actually like cycling or will keep it up. The problem of course is that you don't want to spend too much money on something you might end up not using.



                            The advantage of buying new is that you can go to all the local bike stores, get advice and test ride lots of different bikes. You can take your time choosing what you want and you'll be much more likely to get the bike that suits you in the size that fits you.



                            Buying used means paying less, but you have to know what you are looking for. If you don't know how to evaluate your fit on the bike you could end up with a bike that does not fit you well. You also need some idea of how to evaluate a bikes condition. A worn drivetrain can make the bike inefficient, badly adjusted derailleurs can make shifting gears a pain, and poorly adjusted brakes can be downright dangerous.



                            The other problem with used bikes is there are far fewer bikes to choose from at any given time. You have monitor spaces where used bikes are offered for sale (Craigslist and Facebook marketplaces seem to be the best options) and act on anything that does come up that matches what you want.






                            share|improve this answer













                            Welcome the dilemma of getting a starter bike when you are not sure what kind of bike you want and don't know if you will actually like cycling or will keep it up. The problem of course is that you don't want to spend too much money on something you might end up not using.



                            The advantage of buying new is that you can go to all the local bike stores, get advice and test ride lots of different bikes. You can take your time choosing what you want and you'll be much more likely to get the bike that suits you in the size that fits you.



                            Buying used means paying less, but you have to know what you are looking for. If you don't know how to evaluate your fit on the bike you could end up with a bike that does not fit you well. You also need some idea of how to evaluate a bikes condition. A worn drivetrain can make the bike inefficient, badly adjusted derailleurs can make shifting gears a pain, and poorly adjusted brakes can be downright dangerous.



                            The other problem with used bikes is there are far fewer bikes to choose from at any given time. You have monitor spaces where used bikes are offered for sale (Craigslist and Facebook marketplaces seem to be the best options) and act on anything that does come up that matches what you want.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 42 mins ago









                            Argenti ApparatusArgenti Apparatus

                            37.6k23893




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